Shutting Down

[CoachDoc]

Hello all...been a while since posting.  My wife and I have been seeing a marital therapist over the past several weeks and my wife has continued to state that she didn't know if she wanted to save the marriage or if she could trust me to not hurt her any further by being distant and "mean."  I have tried to stay positive and engaged in trying to save the marriage and "fix" problems I have caused in the past.  I've been sleeping in the attic spare bedroom for 2-3 weeks now.  A few days ago she started lookig for apartments but it isn't an affordable option for me to move out right now.  This morning she said we might consider turning the basement into a separate apartment, but she wasn't sure how well I would cope with it if she were to start going out with frineds, moving on and maybe even going on a date.  Later this morning, before heading to work in the ER, she said that she thought we might need to discuss a formal written separation agreement.

I've told her, tried to prove to her, that I love her and want this marriage to work.  I told her today that I didn't know how well I could cope if she were seeing other people.  I also told her that I was feeling very hollow inside.  The more she pushes away, the more and more I can feel myself closing up emotionally...I heard her saying she needed me to save the marriage, needed me to do things to prove she was important...but now the more she pushes me away, the more rejected and abandonded I feel and the less and less I can do...I'm a wreck...and I keep thinking I need to just do things for her but I cant....emotions are draining away...

[GettingThere (GT)]

CoachDoc,
What part of marriage breakdown is worse than
living separately in the same house?
NONE.  That's just my opinion.

I'd rather have lived in a broom closet
than live with that kind of tension and
emotional upheaval, seriously.

Whatever the reason for the separation,
whoever is at fault, blah, blah, you do not
deserve to live in conditions that are just
traumatic on a daily basis.  That's just my
honest opinion.  It's just over the top! 

[Dazed&Confused]

Well it seems I'm the one who is like your wife.  My husband has AD...and he too is trying to make things right.  Not sure if this is your situation...but maybe if I share it might give you some insight.  In our situation...he would be nice to manipulate me for this or that and I'd be open and then he'd get scared and be mean. I would try to be understanding and love him through it, but he'd just end up mean again.  Around and around we went...for years!  Finally...there was a point where I just started shutting down and building walls myself.  Then...some betrayal.  I just don't believe that what my husband is doing is real...it seems like more lip service...and I can tell he's still distant.  Like you said...emotions are draining...I see that in my husband too.  But the thing is...what I need (and maybe your wife too) is for him to chase me down and do anything to show that he wants this marriage MORE THEN ANYTHING.  Especially nice would be *if* he were able to be emotionally vulnerable and risk getting hurt...and then push through it even if he were a little hurt...so that real love can be shown...real unconditional love.  Fight and not run away.  Thing is...I don't think he's capable of that.....

But...there is also the possibility that your wife has passed the point of no return.  I am not there...just yet.  I agree with the other post that if she is there...a studio apartment would be better then trying to live together seperate. 


Just my two cents...hope it helps.

[teresa]

Coach,

It sounds like your wife has emotionally shut down and like someone else said on here, putting the responsibility all on you to fix it... that can't be done if she is already 'gone'.... The reason I believe she is done is by her ability to 'date'... it is very difficult for a woman to date when she's emotionally connected to her husband.  We just aren't wired like that.  Although women are certainly capable of having sexual affairs, for pure sex, more often than not we have to connect emotionally in order to have satisfying sex.
I agree with Dazed... if you want her and your marriage, fight like hell.... That means forcing yourself to ACT as IF you are still romantically in love with her in spite of her pushing you away...... there's a saying, fake it til you make it, and that applies here.  It won't take long before you know if she's already emotionally gone.  I also wouldn't move out.  I don't think I would have moved out of the bedroom either... Physical separation isn't going to help bring you back together in my opinion.
Take care......


hugs,


t 

[CoachDoc]

I've tried dates, dinners, nearly daily massages (non-sensual because any advances were shunned the first time), talking, listening, therapy, attempts to go dancing, poems, cards, flowers, gifts, expressing love, trying to show love...and the responses were "what? I let you take me out and I'm nice to you and you think everything is OK?" or I try to show affection/be intimate and she pulls away.  I was asked to move out of the bedroom.

I can certainly see the similarities between Dazed's situation and mine....it sounds very much the same.  What I can tell you is this...the following statement by Dazed strikes me very deeply:

"But the thing is...what I need (and maybe your wife too) is for him to chase me down and do anything to show that he wants this marriage MORE THEN ANYTHING.  Especially nice would be *if* he were able to be emotionally vulnerable and risk getting hurt...and then push through it even if he were a little hurt...so that real love can be shown...real unconditional love." 

Trusting others is so difficult...even if there has been very little reason to doubt someone.  Even little risks taken that turn out negative heighten the sensitivity to opening up.  It's like reaching out to a friend asking for help and they don't call you back...all I know is that my experience tells me (and maybe your husband, too) that "a little hurt" leads to more, bigger hurt.  And how do you "push through it"?  And push through to show REAL love...what exactly is "showing real love?"  Unconditional?  You mean like love despite faults?

Overloaded...trying and falling, failing leads to more frustration and pain...which makes me want to pull away...don't know how to fake it with my wife who is a therapist and who already feels I can't be trusted or believed...I don't think faking it is going to strengthen that

[teresa]

By faking it, I meant stop pulling away..... I think Dazed is telling you the same thing.  You are giving up.  I know you are hurt and in my opinion she is the one being extremely mean, but you are pulling away rather than biting the bullet and hanging in there.  This is extremely difficult.....  Using myself as an example, this is what I am talking about - My husband cheated on me, I didn't cheat on him... For the past two years I have felt us becoming distant.  I had tried everything to get him to tell me what was going on.. I could feel him pulling further and further away.  He always said, nothing is wrong....When I found out, I was devastated, I was angry, I was bitter, I was resentful, etc.  I did everything I could think of to get him to focus on me.. to love me... Much like you ; massages, notes, gifts, sex, etc.
What I learned through my therapist, smart friends in similar situations, books, etc. was that if I had decided that I wanted my marriage to work, I needed to get over my angry feelings.  Not necessarily get over them but to ACT like I wasn't angry or at least keep it contained in a way where it wouldn't push my husband away.  He wanted the marriage to work but he wouldn't have continued to had I kept pushing him away... he would have given up.  This is where your wife should be if she wants to keep your marriage together.  If she doesn't, you really can't do it all by yourself no matter how much you show her you love her.......   
Hopefully your therapy will help you get to the next step with her.......


hugs,


t

[Dazed&Confused]

Coach,
It's hard to address this because...only the people in the situation know the actual chain of events.  It sounds like you are really trying a lot of things to show that you care.  My question to you would be...are you doing these things with an open heart or a closed one?  You know how when you and your wife are intimate...and if she's not really into it, but she's "doing" what she needs to do...you just KNOW she's not really there in the moment?  It's the same with women...we have a way of knowing that even when nice things are done...the heart is far away.  Not saying that is your situation...but something to think about.

It is really hard to trust.  You risk getting hurt.  But if you can't risk it with your wife...who can you?  This is the person you decided to spend the rest of your life with.  At some point you have to risk the hurt.  I promise you (as one who has gone through it) that even if she hurts you in the worst of ways that you would survive it...but yes it would be painful.  So say you reach out to take her to dinner and she's distant and mean...you "push through it" by not running away because that behavior hurts you.  This shows her that you are dependable, steady, and not going anywhere no matter what.  Women NEED this.  That's why it's so hard for me to stay in my situation...I have a totally unstable partner who wants to run at every little argument or disagreement.  Real love is a choice, not an emotion or feeling.  There were many times that I didn't feel in love with my husband but I chose to love him him anyway...and in all honesty that is getting harder to do right now.  Unconditional love means you love despite what the other person is doing.  There are no conditions to your love.  In other words I love you if.... doesn't happen.  You put your needs aside for the other without resentment because you love. 

My husband has used the "fake it til you make it" statement with me...drives me nuts.  Yeah, I'd rather there be no faking it.  What you have to fake loving me?  But I guess from his perspective that if he doen't feel it but wants it he needs to do the actions and the feelings will come later. Not sure how true that is...and yes your wife will know.

It's ok to fail...it's not bad.  Just keep going...if you want it that bad.  Now only you know if your wife has been loving and patient and supportive of you in the past.  Only you know if she's really trust worthy...not what's going on in your head..but her actual actions over the years.  Don't quit!  Feel the pain and frustration and do it anyway!  But...Teresa is right that you can't do it by yourself.  AFter a certain amount of time she should start coming around to you if she still wants the marriage to work.  I pray she does.

[JenK]

So how long does he have to keep taking the heaping loads of BS before she finally decides she will keep both feet in the marriage? I would like a definition of "mean". My friend uses that term all the time, and even when I have been there during the converation all I can see of "mean" is him not agreeing 110% with her. I doubt both of you are in her situation exactly, but I think that things which are so subjective such as the term "mean" need to be explained a little.

Coach, hang in there, know you got folks praying for you.

[Dazed&Confused]

I would say that he takes the heaps of BS as long as he can.  I don't know...I could be wrong here...but I am guessing that she has put up with heaps of his BS for a very long time and that is why she is so unsure of his motives.  The more he can put up with it and genuinely open up to her the more she will see it is safe to come out from behind her protective wall that she has built.  Granted, there is the chance that she has already reached a point of no return...but she's still willing to live with him so I'm not quite convinced she's totally done...but who knows.  You can only try...if you try your best and give it all you've got what do you loose?  Yes, there will be pain and hurt if it doesn't work...can you get through it with time?  Yes.  But what if there is a break through?  If you quit cuz you feel like a failure then you're running away.  There's still some fighting to do but it will be hard and painful because she's hurt and isn't going to react in a loving responsive way all the time.  Can you push through that?  Is it worth it?  Only you know Coach...hang in there and I will be praying. 

[One Confused Puppy]

I have to agree with teresa.  It sounds like your wife has already made the emotional break in her heart and in her mind.

I know with my ex, I had made the emotional break YEARS before we finally divorced.  My husband was cold and critical toward me for years.  But he didn't want to let me go because I made good money and he didn't want to let go of THAT.  (He made about four times more, but he was greedy.)  So every time I would say I wanted out, he would list all these reasons why it wouldn't work, but love was never one of them.

We shared a bed (without intimacy, I might add) and a house for years, but it wasn't any kind of marriage.  Both of us were unhappy, but he didn't want to let go.  For a long time, I kept hoping that maybe, just maybe, his resistance was because he cared about US, but his behavior clearly said just the opposite.

Sounds to me like you've given it everything you had, and it hasn't worked.  Like the song says, "Ya gotta know when to hold 'em, and know when to fold 'em."

Good luck.

[CoachDoc]

Yep.  Done.  She said she needs to take care of herself, hasn't seen enough change in me since starting to work at this in Feb. to convince her that I can fix the hurt I have caused her over the past 14.5 years.  She said she needs a man who will cherish her and I am not that man.  She says she knows that I love her...but it hasn't been enough.  She has gone as far as thinking far enough out to say that she wants compensation for the retirement funds she wasn't able to put away while she was working and I was in school...even though it was money from my GI Bill and Navy College fund that paid for my BA, as well as our first Pathfinder and rent.  Whatever...she's already talking about maybe a divorced friend (best female friend from HS) of hers possibly moving in and renting a room.  And continues to tell me that she needs to move on and take care of herself but that I need to be close and available in order to not only watch the boys but that she is going to need help maintaining the house and yard...and that, if I truly care about her we will be able to remain civil and I can continue being a friend....

Yeah, I remember those HS days....I like you like a friend...

[teresa]

It sounds like she has been shut down for awhile and that no matter what you did or have done wouldn't have made a difference...... I'm so sorry...... If you can I would continue with the therapy, but for yourself.  You need the support and encouragement.......


hugs,


t

[CoachDoc]

Yeah, session tomorrow morning.

[GettingThere (GT)]

So sorry, CoachDoc.

Truly, though, removing yourself physically
from that situation, while a huge adjustment,
will at least allow you to breathe freely. 
It sounds just terrible.  You deserve to
BREATHE! 

GT

[Dazed&Confused]

I am so sorry to hear that she is done...and I guess in some ways now you know where you stand.  There will be a lot of details to figure out regarding the house and finances.  I would remain civil if you can for the boys.  When my parents divorced...they were very civil around us kids and it was an amazing gift that they gave us because we always felt that they loved us and that it was never our fault they weren't together.  However, I don't think that civil includes maintaining the house...unless you are doing that until you sell it and split any profits.  I will be praying for you.